{
  "schema": "tga.work.v1",
  "identifier": "dresden:vol-7:a-reply-to-rev-john-hall-and-warner-van-norden",
  "slug": "a-reply-to-rev-john-hall-and-warner-van-norden",
  "title": "A Reply to Rev. John Hall and Warner Van Norden",
  "subtitle": "On hungry cloakmakers and the Christianity of capital.",
  "excerpt": "An answer to the pious Dr. Hall and the rich Mr. Van Norden — on striking cloakmakers in New York, the prayers of employers, and the Christianity that starves its neighbors and builds churches.",
  "year": 1894,
  "volume": 7,
  "category": "Reply",
  "author": {
    "name": "Robert G. Ingersoll",
    "wikidata": "Q360326",
    "viaf": "44331023"
  },
  "isPartOf": {
    "title": "The Works of Robert G. Ingersoll",
    "edition": "Dresden Edition",
    "publisher": "C. P. Farrell",
    "year": 1900
  },
  "license": "https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/mark/1.0/",
  "url": "https://thegreatagnostic.com/works/a-reply-to-rev-john-hall-and-warner-van-norden/",
  "wordCount": 2713,
  "body": "• The attention of the Morning Advertiser readers was, in the\n    issue of February 27th, called to two sets of facts\n    transpiring contemporaneously in this city. One was the\n    starving condition of four hundred cloakmakers who had\n    struck because they could not live on reduced wages.\n    Arbitration had failed; two hundred of the number, seeing\n    starvation staring them in the face, were forced to give up\n    the fight, and the remaining number continued to do battle\n    for higher wages\n    While these cloakmakers were in the extremity of\n    destitution, millionaires were engaged in subscribing to a\n    fund \"for the extension of the church.\" The extension\n    committee, received at the home of Jay Gould, had met with\n    such signal success as to cause comment throughout the city.\n    The host subscribed ten thousand dollars, his daughter\n    twenty-five hundred and the assembled guests sums ranging\n    between five hundred and one thousand. The Morning\n    Advertiser made inquiry as to whether any of the money\n    contributed for the extension of the church would find its\n    way into the pockets of the hungry cloakmakers.\n    Dr. John Hall said he did not have time to discuss the\n    matter of aiding the needy poor, as there were so many other\n    things that demanded his immediate attention.\n    Mr. Warner Van Norden, Treasurer of the Church Extension\n    Committee, was seen at his office in the North American\n    Bank, of which institution he is President.\n    He took the view that the cloakmakers had brought their\n    trouble upon themselves, and it was not the duty of the\n    charitable to extend to them direct aid.\n    Generally speaking, he was not in favor of helping the poor\n    and needy of the city, save in the way employed by the\n    church.\n    \"The experience of centuries, said he, \"teaches us that the\n    giving of alms to the poor only encourage them in their\n    idleness and their crimes. The duty of the church is to save\n    men's a souls, and to minister to their bodies incidentally.\n    \"It is best to teach people to rely upon their own\n    resources. If the poor felt that they could get material\n    help, they would want it always. In these days if a man or\n    woman can't get along it's their own fault. There is my\n    typewriter. She was brought up in a tenement house. Now she\n    gets two dollars a day, and dresses better than did the\n    lords and ladies of other times. You'll find that where\n    people are poor, it's their own fault.\n    \"After all, happiness does not lie in the enjoyment of\n    material things—it is the soul that makes life worth\n    living. You should come to our Working Girls' Club and see\n    this fact illustrated. There you will see girls who have\n    been working all day, singing hymns and following the leader\n    in prayer.\"\n    Don't you think there are many worthy poor in this city who\n    need material help?\" was asked.\n    \"No, sir; I do not,\" said Mr. Van Norden. \"If a man or woman\n    wants money, they should work for It.\"\n    \"But is employment always to be had?\"\n    \"I think it is by Americans. You'll find that most of the\n    people out of work are those who are not adapted to the\n    conditions of this country.\n\nColonel Robert Ingersoll was asked what he thought of such\nphilosophy.—New York Morning Advertiser, March 10,1892.\n\nQuestion. Have you read the article in the Morning Advertiser entitled\n\"Workers Starving\"?\n\nAnswer. I have read it, and was greatly surprised at the answers made\nto the reporter of the Advertiser.\n\nQuestion. What do you think of the remarks of the Rev. John Hall and\nby Mr. Warner Van Norden, Treasurer of the \"Church Extension Committee\"?\n\nAnswer. My opinion is that Dr. Hall must have answered under some\nirritation, or that the reporter did not happen to take down all he\nsaid. It hardly seems probable that Dr. Hall should have said that he\nhad no time to discuss the matter of aiding the needy poor, giving as a\nreason that there were so many other things that demanded his immediate\nattention. The church is always insisting that it is, above all things,\na charitable institution; that it collects and distributes many millions\nevery year for the relief of the needy, and it is always quoting: \"Sell\nthat thou hast and give to the poor.\" It is hard to imagine anything of\nmore importance than to relieve the needy, or to succor the oppressed.\nOf course, I know that the church itself produces nothing, and that it\nlives on contributions; but its claim is that it receives from those who\nare able to give, and gives to those who are in urgent need.\n\nI have sometimes thought, that the most uncharitable thing in the\nworld is an organized charity. It seems to have the peculiarities of a\ncorporation, and becomes as soulless as its kindred. To use a very old\nphrase, it generally acts like \"a beggar on horseback.\"\n\nProbably Dr. Hall, in fact, does a great deal for the poor, and I\nimagine that he must have been irritated or annoyed when he made the\nanswer attributed to him in the Advertiser. The good Samaritan may\nhave been in a hurry, but he said nothing about it. The Levites\nthat passed by on the other side seemed to have had other business.\nUnderstand me, I am saying nothing against Dr. Hall, but it does seem\nto me that there are few other matters more important than assisting our\nneedy fellow-men.\n\nQuestion. What do you think of Mr. Warner Van Norden's sentiments as\nexpressed to the reporter?\n\nAnswer. In the first place, I think he is entirely mistaken. I do not\nthink the cloakmakers brought their trouble upon themselves. The wages\nthey receive were and are insufficient to support reasonable human\nbeings. They work for almost nothing, and it is hard for me to\nunderstand why they live at all, when life is so expensive and death so\ncheap. All they can possibly do is to earn enough one day to buy food\nto enable them to work the next. Life with them is a perpetual struggle.\nThey live on the edge of death. Under their feet they must feel the side\nof the grave crumbling, and thus they go through, day by day, month by\nmonth, year by year. They are, I presume, sustained by a hope that is\nnever realized.\n\nMr. Van Norden says that he is not in favor of helping the poor and\nneedy of the city, save in the way employed by the church, and that the\nexperience of centuries teaches us that the giving of alms to the poor\nonly encourages them in their idleness and their crimes.\n\nIs Mr. Van Norden ready to take the ground that when Christ said: \"Sell\nthat thou hast and give to the poor,\" he intended to encourage idleness\nand crime?\n\nIs it possible that when it was said, \"It is better to give than to\nreceive,\" the real meaning was, It is better to encourage idleness and\ncrime than to receive assistance?\n\nFor instance, a man falls into the water. Why should one standing on the\nshore attempt to rescue him? Could he not properly say: \"If all who fall\ninto the water are rescued, it will only encourage people to fall into\nthe water; it will make sailors careless, and persons who stand on\nwharves, will care very little whether they fall in or not. Therefore,\nin order to make people careful who have not fallen into the water,\nlet those in the water drown.\" In other words, why should anybody\nbe assisted, if assistance encourages carelessness, or idleness, or\nnegligence?\n\nAccording to Mr. Van Norden, charity is out of place in this world,\nkindness is a mistake, and hospitality springs from a lack of\nphilosophy. In other words, all should take the consequences of their\nacts, not only, but the consequences of the acts of others.\n\nIf I knew this doctrine to be true, I should still insist that men\nshould be charitable on their own account. A man without pity, no matter\nhow intelligent he may be, is at best only an intellectual beast, and\nif by withholding all assistance we could finally people the world\nwith those who are actually self-supporting, we would have a population\nwithout sympathy, without charity—that is to say, without goodness. In\nmy judgment, it would be far better that none should exist.\n\nMr. Van Norden takes the ground that the duty of the church is to save\nmen's souls, and to minister to their bodies incidentally. I think that\nconditions have a vast deal to do with morality and goodness. If you\nwish to change the conduct of your fellow-men, the first thing to do is\nto change their conditions, their surroundings; in other words, to help\nthem to help themselves—help them to get away from bad influences, away\nfrom the darkness of ignorance, away from the temptations of poverty and\nwant, not only into the light intellectually, but into the climate of\nprosperity. It is useless to give a hungry man a religious tract, and it\nis almost useless to preach morality to those who are so situated that\nthe necessity of the present, the hunger of the moment, overrides every\nother consideration. There is a vast deal of sophistry in hunger, and a\ngood deal of persuasion in necessity.\n\nProsperity is apt to make men selfish. They imagine that because they\nhave succeeded, others and all others, might or may succeed. If any man\nwill go over his own life honestly, he will find that he has not always\nsucceeded because he was good, or that he has always failed because\nhe was bad. He will find that many things happened with which he had\nnothing to do, for his benefit, and that, after all is said and done, he\ncannot account for all of his successes by his absolute goodness. So,\nif a man will think of all the bad things he has done—of all the bad\nthings he wanted to do—of all the bad things he would have done had he\nhad the chance, and had he known that detection was impossible, he will\nfind but little foundation for egotism.\n\nQuestion. What do you say to this language of Mr. Van Norden. \"It is\nbest to teach people to rely upon their own resources. If the poor felt\nthat they could get material help they would want it always, and in this\nday, if a man and woman cannot get along, it is their own fault\"?\n\nAnswer. All I can say is that I do not agree with him. Often there are\nmany more men in a certain trade than there is work for such men. Often\ngreat factories shut down, leaving many thousands out of employment. You\nmay say that it was the fault of these men that they learned that trade;\nthat they might have known it would be overcrowded; so you may say it\nwas the fault of the capitalist to start a factory in that particular\nline, because he should have known that it was to be overdone.\n\nAs no man can look very far into the future, the truth is it was\nnobody's fault, and without fault thousands and thousands are thrown out\nof employment. Competition is so sharp, wages are so small, that to be\nout of employment for a few weeks means want. You cannot say that this\nis the fault of the man who wants bread. He certainly did not wish to go\nhungry; neither did he deliberately plan a failure. He did the best he\ncould. There are plenty of bankers who fail in business, not because\nthey wish to fail; so there are plenty of professional men who cannot\nmake a living, yet it may not be their fault; and there are others who\nget rich, and it may not be by reason of their virtues.\n\nWithout doubt, there are many people in the city of New York who\ncannot make a living. Competition is too sharp; life is too complex;\nconsequently the percentage of failures is large. In savage life there\nare few failures, but in civilized life there are many. There are many\nthousands out of work and out of food in Berlin to-day. It can hardly be\nsaid to be their fault. So there are many thousands in London, and every\nother great city of the world. You cannot account for all this want by\nsaying that the people who want are entirely to blame.\n\nA man gets rich, and he is often egotistic enough to think that his\nwealth was the result of his own unaided efforts; and he is sometimes\nheartless enough to say that others should get rich by following his\nexample.\n\nMr. Van Norden states that he has a typewriter who gets two dollars a\nday, and that she dresses better than the lords and ladies did of olden\ntimes. He must refer to the times of the Garden of Eden. Out of two\ndollars a day one must live, and there is very little left for gorgeous\nrobes. I hardly think a lady is to be envied because she receives two\ndollars a day, and the probability is that the manner in which she\ndresses on that sum—having first deducted the expenses of living—is\nnot calculated to excite envy.\n\nThe philosophy of Mr. Van Norden seems to be concentrated into this\nline: \"Where people are poor it is their own fault.\" Of course this is\nthe death of all charity.\n\nWe are then informed by this gentleman that \"happiness does not lie in\nthe enjoyment of material things—that it is the soul that makes life\nworth living.\"\n\nIs it the soul without pity that makes life worth living? Is it the soul\nin which the blossom of charity has never shed its perfume that makes\nlife so desirable? Is it the soul, having all material things, wrapped\nin the robes of prosperity, and that says to all the poor: It is your\nown fault; die of hunger if you must—that makes life worth living?\n\nIt may be asked whether it is worth while for such a soul to live.\n\nIf this is the philosophy of Mr. Van Norden, I do not wish to visit his\nworking girls' club, or to \"hear girls who have been working all day\nsinging hymns and following the leader in prayer.\" Why should a soul\nwithout pity pray? Why should any one ask God to be merciful to the poor\nif he is not merciful himself? For my own part, I would rather see\npoor people eat than to hear them pray. I would rather see them clothed\ncomfortably than to see them shivering, and at the same time hear them\nsing hymns.\n\nIt does not seem possible that any man can say that there are no worthy\npoor in this city who need material help. Neither does it seem possible\nthat any man can say to one who is starving that if he wants money he\nmust work for it. There are hundreds and thousands in this city willing\nto work who can find no employment. There are good and pure women\nstanding between their children and starvation, living in rooms\nworse than cells in penitentiaries—giving their own lives to their\nchildren—hundreds and hundreds of martyrs bearing the cross of every\nsuffering, worthy of the reverence and love of mankind. So there are men\nwandering about these streets in search of work, willing to do anything\nto feed the ones they love.\n\nMr. Van Norden has not done himself justice. I do not believe that he\nexpresses his real sentiments. But, after all, why should we expect\ncharity in a church that believes in the dogma of eternal pain? Why\ncannot the rich be happy here in their palaces, while the poor suffer\nand starve in huts, when these same rich expect to enjoy heaven forever,\nwith all the unbelievers in hell? Why should the agony of time interfere\nwith their happiness, when the agonies of eternity will not and cannot\naffect their joy? But I have nothing against Dr. John Hall or Mr. Van\nNorden—only against their ideas.\n"
}